Groomie
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Random SkillsDuring the Season 8 rules changes discussion, Pauly brought up an interesting point about Random Skills.
I am paraphrasing, so bear with me: "I am against Random Skills. I would not even know what to do, and I don't see the benefit."
I can totally understand Pauly's apprehension, and I thought I'd speak on this subject to help explain why random skills are being discussed.
<<<<Disclaimer!!!!>>>>
The current debate over random skills has no bearing on Season 8. This isn't a discussion that is going to impact the next season of CHC Blood Bowl.
<<<<End Disclaimer!!!!>>>>
First and foremost, not every skill roll would be random. Most likely the first skill rolled would be random, with the coach's choice of what chart would be rolled on. Skill rolls after the first would be choice skills as usual.
Random skills bring an exciting challenge to the post game sequence. They force coaches to consider more closely what their options are. Without being able to simply choose Block, pieces become wonderfully unique.
There is a benefit which is not readily apparent, as well. Random skills make for better coaches in general. The pieces become more challenging to master and they have to approach in-game problems differently, and that invariably leads to better coaching.
That's my two cents on the subject. For more information about how random skills impact play, I'd suggest talking to anyone in the NJCBBL. Andrew Miller has an encyclopedic knowledge of many of the "mutants" of both the JCBBL and the NJCBBL.
Steve "The Groominator" Groom
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Pete
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I was writing a long reply to this to explain my complete 180 on random skills but the bottom line is this:
Random skills make the game more random and that is something we need less of.
-Peter
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MeatLoafX
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I'm against random skills for many reasons, but here's a question - if a league has random or semi-random skills, what impact does that play in team selection?
I haven't studied any leagues, but one possibility would be that more people would take "safe" teams - i.e. ones loaded with block for example (Norse, Dwarves, etc) to minimize the potential negative effects.
I could be wrong, but it's a possible pitfall to the above idea.
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Groomie
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Those teams are still good, it just means that Ulfwerner's might not get Block as their first skill.
The discussion I have been privy to indicates that on the random chart there would be a place for "pick skill", meaning that you may get to pick a skill in certain circumstances.
Personally, I really favor Random Skills because it makes team management more challenging. I don't like facing cookie cutter teams, and if we remove the skill caps that is EXACTLY what we will have.
Of course, I do like the idea of fielding an entire Wood Elf team with Block/Dodge/Side Step Linemen...
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MeatLoafX
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Well, you may have different team builds, but you may also have 10 dwarf and 10 norse teams. 
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Groomie
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First, that won't happen. The CHC Commission has already stated that they will limit the number of teams of the same race in the league. I believe about 60% of the coaches in the league bring their developed teams back each season. I don't think they will drop their developed teams just to have Block.
Additionally, Random Skills removes the choice of the first skill you take. If you roll your High Elf lineman off the Agility chart, you might get Leap. Normally not a skill I would choose, but the next game that Leap skill may come in handy. When his second skill comes up, you could choose something like Wrestle or Strip Ball or hope for an AG increase to make him even better. If you rolled doubles and rolled on the Strength chart, you might have gotten a skill like Mighty Blow or Piling On. You would then try to give him complimentary skills like Block or Jump Up as his second skills.
Random skills are NOT the boogey man that some players seem to think they are. JCBBL and NJCBBL have both had random skills, and that version of the game is far more violent. There was never a season of all Norse/all Dwarves, and in those leagues the first TWO skills are random.
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Groomie
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| Pete wrote: | I was writing a long reply to this to explain my complete 180 on random skills but the bottom line is this:
Random skills make the game more random and that is something we need less of.
-Peter |
I agree, in fact, skills in general make the game more random, so let's just get rid of all the skills, too.
/end sarcasm
This argument is silly. There is NO difference in the randomness of the game if you choose your first skill or if you have it randomly assigned. No difference. If you want a less random game, Blood Bowl is definitely not for you.
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Kaufmann
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| Groomie wrote: | | Pete wrote: | I was writing a long reply to this to explain my complete 180 on random skills but the bottom line is this:
Random skills make the game more random and that is something we need less of.
-Peter |
I agree, in fact, skills in general make the game more random, so let's just get rid of all the skills, too.
/end sarcasm
This argument is silly. There is NO difference in the randomness of the game if you choose your first skill or if you have it randomly assigned. No difference. If you want a less random game, Blood Bowl is definitely not for you. |
just because he doesnt agree with you doesnt make his argument silly. there is a difference between some say...blitzer getting a skill and instead of being that tackle guy you need going into your match with lizards, he gets shadowing and an early retirement check.
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Pete
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| Groomie wrote: |
I agree, in fact, skills in general make the game more random, so let's just get rid of all the skills, too.
/end sarcasm
This argument is silly. There is NO difference in the randomness of the game if you choose your first skill or if you have it randomly assigned. No difference. If you want a less random game, Blood Bowl is definitely not for you. |
So removing random skills _doesn't_ make the game less random? Let me ask you this again to make sure I'm getting it right...
_Choosing_ your first skill vs. _rolling randomly_ for your first skill is exactly the same randomness?
Are all your dice fixed or just the ones you use to get skills in Blood Bowl?
I think this comment is the most direct and perfect example of the fact that you will disgree with anything I say Steve just because I said it.
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vegeta7913
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I have a human lineman. I want to have a human lineman with tackle because my next game is against TIm's underworld team and I need some anti-dodge.
Choose a skill:
First skill (not a strength boost or ag boost) I pick tackle as that lineman's skill. Not silly.
Random Skill:
First skill randomly rolls kick. May or may not be useful, but now I have no tackle and yet another of Tim's gobbos makes a break for the endzone, with no rerolls, fails the dodge, but with his total not random dice, makes the dodge reroll and scores, thus ensuring his place on the bloodbowl trophy for another year. Silly.
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Groomie
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| Pete wrote: | | Groomie wrote: |
I agree, in fact, skills in general make the game more random, so let's just get rid of all the skills, too.
/end sarcasm
This argument is silly. There is NO difference in the randomness of the game if you choose your first skill or if you have it randomly assigned. No difference. If you want a less random game, Blood Bowl is definitely not for you. |
So removing random skills _doesn't_ make the game less random? Let me ask you this again to make sure I'm getting it right...
_Choosing_ your first skill vs. _rolling randomly_ for your first skill is exactly the same randomness?
Are all your dice fixed or just the ones you use to get skills in Blood Bowl?
I think this comment is the most direct and perfect example of the fact that you will disgree with anything I say Steve just because I said it. |
So if I disagree with you it isn't because I believe you are incorrect, it is just that I'm a jerk?
If I want to disagree with you on principal, I will. More importantly, I will announce it. We have, in the past, in public and on these forums agreed on things.
Your comment above is pretty much the most direct and perfect example of the fact that you have a very selective memory.
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Groomie
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| vegeta7913 wrote: | I have a human lineman. I want to have a human lineman with tackle because my next game is against TIm's underworld team and I need some anti-dodge.
Choose a skill:
First skill (not a strength boost or ag boost) I pick tackle as that lineman's skill. Not silly.
Random Skill:
First skill randomly rolls kick. May or may not be useful, but now I have no tackle and yet another of Tim's gobbos makes a break for the endzone, with no rerolls, fails the dodge, but with his total not random dice, makes the dodge reroll and scores, thus ensuring his place on the bloodbowl trophy for another year. Silly. |
I thought you didn't like arguing hypotheticals?
You are right, Drew, sometimes random skills may cause you to lose a game. So do random dice rolls, inducements, and whether or not your opponent had a good night's sleep. You also neglected to mention that your first pick skill might be shadowing. This has happened at least once in the league, and you seem to base this hypothetical argument on the idea that you will pick the right skill to win. There is no guarantee that pick skills will help you in your second example. In fact, maybe in that same game having a kick piece in combination with getting a "Blitz" result on a kick off means you recover the ball and score again.
But, hey, that hypothetical argument supports my position, so it must be ignored or derided.
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Vitamin T
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Speaking not as commish but only off of my personal opinion I actually agree with Groom. I'm personally a fan of random first skill assuming that we can develop a quality chart. This would only be for the first skill and there wouldnt be a skill cap if there were random skills. The whole reason for the skill cap is to promote interesting and diverse team development. Adding one random skill accomplishes this goal much better. Obviously there is a chance that the skill you gained randomly wont be the one that you wanted ideally. There is also a chance that you end up with something that you wouldnt have picked, put that suprises you with its usefulness something like pass block.
Speaking as commish, there is 0% chance that there will be random skills in season 8 (as was stated above). If it is something that the league is not interested in it will not happen.
That said, I've always thought that lively and good natured debate over this sort of thing is very worthwhile. Please dont let this debate get bogged down by personal attacks. I know they are often not intended when they happen on the interwebs, but there is no reason we cant all keep a positive attitude! 
TL
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vegeta7913
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In response to your post to me, Steve, you're right, I don't like hypothetical arguments because they are a dime a dozen and they tend to be overly dramatic and extreme. However, since the post I replied to was in the language of hypothetical, I responded in kind.
As to derision and discounting your argument: That's exactly what you did to Pete's argument by calling it "silly". What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Here is a response to your very original post here, with minimal imaginary situations. This is my opinion, not as a league official.
Your initial statement was that "Random skills bring an exciting challenge to the post game sequence. They force coaches to consider more closely what their options are. Without being able to simply choose Block, pieces become wonderfully unique." That is your opinion. I prefer to develop my team as I see fit in the Living Rulebook universe, not as the random dice gods prefer. Also, a question? How does the random skill roll provide more options to a coach? You still have to choose which chart, but making that skill choice is now taken away from the coach. Further down the road, as a coach, you'll be forced to make choices, but no more so than what you have to do now. Less choice for the coach, more randomness.
Second, you stated "There is a benefit which is not readily apparent, as well. Random skills make for better coaches in general. The pieces become more challenging to master and they have to approach in-game problems differently, and that invariably leads to better coaching." This league has been playing for several seasons with pick skills, and the quality of the coaching from season 1 til now has consistently improved with each passing season. As someone who has not been in the league since the beginning, I'm sure that you may not have been aware of that skill increase. That being said, it is a good exercise for coaches to learn to play with all skills, not just the top ten; so that they know the pros and cons of each skill...but, again, that is a choice for the coach not for some league to enforce. Of course, being limited to only 4 of any particular skill also requires planning and foresight for a coach, forcing them to think outside the box as well.
Personally, I would rather us not go to a random skill table, quite simply because we already have a limiting agent in place with the skill cap. The cap teaches the coach how to deal with resource allocation while still allowing them a freedom to pick what skills look interesting to them. I also enjoy being able to make a piece how I want them to be without having an outside randomizer force me down a path before I'm ready to take it.
I'm not saying I don't think random skills have a place. I play in the NJCBBL and prefer the random skills in that league than pick, since the available skills in that league are much more brutal (in my opinion) than those of the 5.0 world. Random skills also work in the NJCBBL because you have the ability to "fix" bad skills through use of the extra money cards. Unfortunately, if you randomize a bad skill for a piece in 5.0 and can't afford to replace it, you're either stuck with an extra 2 points of team rating or you cut the piece for a journeyman with loner.
In 5.0, where team development is slowed (both in terms of money earned and skills developed) a piece with a "dead" skill is more a detriment than opportunity. Insert random bad skill hypothetical here....you may respond with random good skill hypothetical.
I'm gonna make dinner.
[/i]
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Groomie
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I hope dinner was good, I think we have chili dogs upstairs...I just donated, so if this post stops abruptly it is because I have fainted or died...
Adding Random Skills to the game does not increase the randomness of the game. Adding ANY skill, random or selected, adds to the randomness of the game.
I totally agree with you in regards to skill caps and lack of money/development and Random Skills. I personally would not like random skills with skill caps because of the lack of money and spiraling expenses. If we retain the 400k inducements, then I think the issues of random skills that you and Jason have put forward would be greatly mitigated. If we did not have those inducements, then yes, random skills have a greater chance of creating "dead" pieces.
In terms of coach development, I may not have played every season, but I sure as hell have watched a LOT of games by a lot of coaches. You are correct, there has been improvement, for there not to be would mean that something was really wrong. However, in-game problem solving with pieces that developed differently than you plan would only increase coaching skills more.
I'm off to eat.
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MeatLoafX
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Understanding that this is not up for debate in season 8, I'd be interested in seeing what charts have been developed for random skills. I've never seen one. I'd be interested in seeing one or more, though - I'm curious and if I'm going to spout my opinion (which I've been known to do) then at least I can pretend to know what I'm talking about. 
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Groomie
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Tim, Chris K, myself and others were talking about this on Sunday. Since we have all the Star player point info from Season 7, we can actually use that to test random skills and possible charts.
I'd like to run a couple week test league, myself.
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The_drubber
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As for random skills, in a purely testing situation...I will try anything once...famous last words....
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Groomie
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I've got some hemlock around here somewhere, Pauly...
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