Mighty Empires Season 3, Week 1.

Blood Bowl Wizard · Mighty Empires Season 3, Week 1.

Season 3 has begun. Let's have fun.

Jason plays Dwarfs, no event.
Chris Cloud plays Warriors of chaos, no event
Peter plays orcs and goblins, no event
Drew plays Dwarfs, and chooses Disaster vs. Jason.
Bryan plays Dark Elves, no event
Chuck plays Ogre Kingdoms, and chooses All or nothing, challenges Drew.
Steve Groom plays High Elves, and chooses Diplomacy vs. Noel/Conner, and challenges Steve Drop.
Nate plays Beasts of Chaos, and chooses Elite Army, challenges Chris Cloud.
Harrison plays Empire, and chooses Land grab, challenges Jason.
Conner/Noel plays Scaven, and chooses Scouts, challenges Peter.
Steve Drop plays Wood Elves, no event.

Here are the games.
Chuck vs. Drew
Steve Groom vs. Steve Drop
Nate vs. Chris
Harrison vs. Jason
Conner/Noel vs. Peter
Bryan vs. Steve Drop

That's right Steve Drop gets to play two games, or both of them at the same time if he wants to.

Any questions, let me know.
Jason

Blood Bowl Wizard

There are a couple of games tonight. Steve Groom and Steve Drop I think are playing at CHG. Harrison and I are playing in my basement. I think both games start around 6:30.

If anyone wants to come and watch/help teach Harrison how to play that would be cool.

Jason

vegeta7913

chuck and i are playing at CHG on Thursday, for those of you that are interested.

Pete

Noel and I will be playing tomorrow (Thursday) @ CHG as well if anyone is interested in watching.

I'll bring my GW battlemat and terrain so that we'll have two good tables.

-Peter

Nipponb

That means we need to get the map hung or put away before Thur. So we can use both tables.

Noel

Groomie

The High Elves and Wood Elves ground each other into paste. The differential was 40 whole points, making it a draw.

Blood Bowl Wizard

Harrison and I played. The Dwarfs won, or perhaps I should say, The gyrocopter won. That is until a great cannon shot it down on turn four.

Jason

Groomie

Announcing the arrival of the "I hate Gyrocopters/Dwarves are broken!" Bandwagon. All aboard!

Vitamin T

I'll jump on board!

vegeta7913

chuck massacred my dwarves, partly due to me forgetting to unload my organ gun, partly due to poor setup on my part, 3rd, having a shotgun unit that showed me the true meaning of pain. Note to self....stay the hell away from that unit.

Pete

I played with Noel tonight, result: Orcs win in a massacre by 3 points.

So, when we were playing, I mis-remembered a rule whereby I thought if combat resolution was a tie with both sides having a musician, that the two sides rolled off to see who won. I realized later that I was remembering the roll for tied initiative that had come up in a game with Jake some months ago. As a result, I caused Noel's plaguebearer unit to flee and I ran him down with my Battlestandard-Bearer Orc unit.

Now, we're supposedly going to dispute the result of this game and put it to a vote at the next meeting. I propose this: how about we just remove both units from the game and score the total with the unit's points removed? That would probably drop me to a solid victory.

I'm willing to accept whatever result people find satisfying.

I apologized to Noel for getting the rule so screwed up. Besides that, I had a good time and learned a few things in the process. I hope Noel did too.

-Peter

Groomie

I honestly think you are being too hard on yourself about this issue, Pete. Mistakes happen, and I don't care how the game gets scored as long as everyone is happy and the mistakes aren't repeated. Hell, I made a huge mistake that cost me a unit against Drop, but I don't expect to have the game re-scored because of it. This situation might be a little different because the mistake went against your opponent, and your margin of victory was really close.

I think that we should just let Pete and Noel decide how this goes, otherwise we need to have some kind of official rules judge. I don't want this to become like Blood Bowl. We are playing two games here, WFB and Mighty Empires. I think we should have a few house rules that only apply to things like maximizing facing, which the rulebook doesn't cover. I don't want to have to defer to someone else to determine my game outcome.

The bottom line for me is that if you feel that the mistake was such that you'd consider changing your victory, you probably should just go ahead and do it. We are playing a naturally competitive game inside another competitive game, and we should all (myself included) strive to make the games as easy going and light hearted as possible. It may mean that you get one less point this turn, Pete, and maybe you don't win the Campaign, but you win in the book of being a good sport.

Of course, mistakes happen in the game all the time. Once units are removed it is hard to justify going back and changing things. I certainly won't think less of you for wanting your massacre. I do understand that this was a mistake, pure and simple, and anyone who thinks you acted in a wrong fashion on purpose has obviously never played a game with you before.

That's my two cents.

Blood Bowl Wizard

I don't really feel comfortable making the call that Peter gets fewer points from this mistake. Especially since I won a massacre myself against Harrison last night... Since mistakes happen in every game, perhaps we should let Peter keep the points for a Massacre, and give Noel and Conner an extra point to make up for the mistake.

Either way I think that we should come up with a house rulebook sometime soon.

Jason

vegeta7913

i can see an extra point to noel and sub commander cookie. it was a pretty massacrish scene

Groomie

I think the game should stand as is, or Pete should just take the Solid Victory. As to awarding extra campaign points, I am not sure. I have yet to see a game played where at least one rules mistake wasn't made. If we do decide to give Noel/Conor a point, then we should be very sure about the precedent and where the line would be.

Having observed part of the game, I can say that this particular mistake was very pivotal. It was mid to late game, it meant that at least two of Pete's units were free to attack other parts of the Skaven army, and it severely limited what Noel and Conor could do for the rest of the game.

I think the best fix is either nothing or letting Pete take one less point because he profited from this mistake. If the mistake wasn't made, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Noel and Conor would have won the game or even had a draw.

I don't want to try to be mean to Noel or Conor, I just want things to be reasonable.

As to a "CHG Mighty Empires" Rulebook, I am all for codifying rules for both Mighty Empires and WFB, and I'd be happy to help in that area. The best thing to do right now would be to write down anything that comes up that isn't covered by the rules. Those issues should be posted to a thread here, and the rulebook should be derived from our shared solutions.

The main WFB issue that I am concerned about is "clipping/maximizing facing". I don't like clipping, but I don't like making it easier for someone to charge, either. I think that if we adopt a "maximizing facing rule" it should allow the targeted unit to move.

My reasoning is that close combat already pretty much rules this game, and I see this is a form of a charge response rather than giving charging units extra wheeling that doesn't cost any movement. Another option would be to give the target unit the option to maximize, and if they decline then the charging unit would be able to shift to maximize facing. In fact, I like that change even more.

Pete

Thanks guys. I feel bad anytime I screw up a rule, I don't want people to think I'm a dishonest player. It's very important to me. I'd be fine with accepting a solid victory instead if that seems to be the consensus or if people want me to decide. The only problem with that is that Noel doesn't really benefit from that result at all and I feel like since he was a good sport about it he should get something too.

I'm also for codifying all of our current house rules like the gentlemens agreement about maximized facing following a charge.

Groomie

While some armies have ranged weapons, it doesn't come close to the amount of close combat options they have. Having access to a bolt thrower doesn't mean you can contend with Wood Elves or High Elves in a shooting match. I don't think that we should base decisions simply on what army list options allow for shooting. This isn't about shooting armies, it is about the overpowering of Close Combat units.

In regards to your observations about my suggested alternative:

Of course, if a unit is already engaged it wouldn't be allowed to move. I am vehemently opposed to letting a charging unit wheel or adjust their movement for free. It is completely unrealistic to say they have one free wheel, then give them additional movement because GW can't make a good rule for clipping.

My suggestion is still better than just letting people whore their way into getting more benefit for taking large blocks of ass beaters and narrowly being able to charge.

If we don't adopt a rule regarding the defender having first choice, then we should adopt a rule that states you must wheel until the facing is maximized before completing the charge.

If clipping is a bad thing, then we should not allow it. Allowing any unit that charges free wheeling or movement AFTER basing the target is stupid. GW's FAQ is not a valid solution, neither in terms of being an actual rule nor in terms of being well though out.

This issue is fairly important, but isn't one that GW has an answer for or it would be in the book. The book says..."well, we'll think of something, go to our website".

What a load of crap.

This game already gives too much to close combat units, and just saying that they get to move for free because, well, we don't know what else to say, isn't remotely a fair or correct decision.

Groomie

Nipponb

Ok I suppose I should chime in here now.

1. Pete should get his full points. I am as much to blame for allowing it. Stuff happens oh well. I won't make the mistake again and I am betting neither will Pete.
2. I shouldn't get extra points. Steve is right rules are messed up all time. If you don't take the time to find the right ones, you get what you earned.
3. We will have our revenge. Maybe not today... maybe not tomorrow...but soon.

So all is good. I also made a mistake in the game. Drew told me Jazzails could fire twice. Looking at the book they have two attacks, but I believe that is just for hand-to-hand since they are two models. I don't believe this gives them extra shotting attacks. Can someone please confirm this? But with them firing twice it made them much more effective and would have reduced a number of kills.

Noel

wrekka

Nipponb

The book doesn't say anything about multi-shot that I can find. The only thing I can think of is that it list them as having a 2 attack rating.

Noel

Blood Bowl Wizard

Bryan's Dark Elves beat Steve Drop's Wood Elves pretty bad on Saturday night. Massacre for the Dark Elves.

The last game of round 1 is Nate vs. Chris, sounds like it's going to be on Tuesday.

We will have a meeting on Sunday at 1:00.

Knox

Trius · ChaOS VS cHaOs

Chris and I play to our usual dead even tie.

Blood Bowl Wizard

You guys stink. I think you should play again next week.

Knox

Groomie

All the games are done, correct?

Blood Bowl Wizard

Yeah, all the games are done, we will have a meeting on Sunday at 1:00.

Chuck vs. Drew: Chuck won with a massacre
Steve Groom vs. Steve Drop: Draw
Nate vs. Chris: Draw
Harrison vs. Jason: Jason won with a massacre
Conner/Noel vs. Peter: Peter won with a massacre
Bryan vs. Steve Drop : Bryan won with a massacre

Peter, Steve Groom, Chris, and I will each have an extra point to spend due to the painting contest.

Knox

wrekka · Re: ChaOS VS cHaOs

Pete

Ok, so while I observed Nate and Chris's game, a question came up about how many models need to be in a unit of ogres to get a rank bonus. The rule book states that the unit must have a rank of at least "5 models" to get a rank bonus. Unfortunately for ogres, they have much larger bases, usually people play them 3 bases wide, which would mean no rank bonus.

The only rule I could find that's even related is the ruling on characters inside units from the new FAQ that came out last month:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MED...0025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009

Basically it states that a character who joins a unit and displaces models in multiple ranks counts as a model for both ranks for determining rank bonus. This is how I put my Orc characters in my blocks of orcs so that clarifies that. There isn't anything about models with larger bases like ogres.

-Peter

Sand

I'm sure that it's three but can't remember where I read that. My army book is in the car and I don't want to go get it so I sent an email to GW. If they don't get back to me in the next couple of days I'll see if I can find it again.

Chuck

Groomie

in response to the link that Pete posted:

This does not cover the actual question, and I don't think it makes any kind of sense to try to apply this to units that aren't joined by a character. The rules are pretty clear, and if there was an issue, one would think that it would be addressed in the FAQ by this point.

in response to Chuck:

The rules for units in the Ogre Kingdoms book in regards to ranks of multi wound models are not the same as the rulebook, and are therefore inapplicable to Nate's army.

My take:

Nate's unit should follow the rules in the rulebook. I think that trying to create a house rule to change that would be ill advised. The unit itself is fine, and has other benefits to make it effective in the game. If Nate wants a rank bonus, he should buy enough models to generate one. It's pretty simple.

wrekka

Trius

I actually didn't think I was getting a rank bonus. The question came up when those around thought I should get one. I've looked at a bunch of message boards about rank bonus and it seems that the community in general also believes that to recieve a bonus, the rank must contain 5 models.

Groomie

At least with that many dudes, you'll rarely be outnumbered....

wrekka

Sand

Seems I was wrong. The response from GW says that it does take 5 ogres to make a full rank. I guess that means that I'll never get a rank bonus.

vegeta7913

Speaking of rules, I looked thru the Skaven book for the shooting rules. It just says the Jezzails gets two attacks. Doesn't say in melee or in range. I can't find my regular rules book, but i'm assuming somewhere in the ranged section it states that unless specifically noted, only 1 shot can be fired a turn?

Groomie

It would definitely state if more than one shot was available, the Multiple Shot rule would be in both the army list entry and in the unit description.

Groomie

vegeta7913

I knew he was a dirty cheater....remember to bring the marker on sunday so we can draw on his face the giant "C" for cheater.

Blood Bowl Wizard

I hope Chuck brings his army book to the meeting on Sunday, *hint*. I also hope that a Scaven book is available. I think we would like to look at both books.

Knox

Groomie

And don't forget, it's not "Chuck", it's "MotherChucker".

Sand

That's my trucker name...

Well even though I was wrong about the rank bonus it never came up in my game against Drew.

vegeta7913

yeah....rank bonus doesn't matter when units are destroyed in a turn.

Groomie

Blood Bowl Wizard

*Reminder*

We are having a meeting Sunday at CHG to finish round 1, and start round 2. See you at 1:00.

Knox

Mighty Empires Season 3, Week 1.

ChaOS VS cHaOs

Re: ChaOS VS cHaOs