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| Groomie |
Mighty Empires House Rules ThreadThere are a few things regarding Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Mighty Empires that do need to be ruled on. These include but are not limited to: Clipping, Maximizing Facing, War Machines and the victory points they award, and the presence of movement trays.In Mighty Empires there are concerns over repeating the events if we have more than 8 players, assigning events and challenges when one or more players are not present at the bi-weekly meeting. I started this thread to get everyone to chime in on things so that we have a starting point. There are a lot of topics here, let's hear what you think about them. |
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| Pete |
I think we should agree to the clipping/maximized facing as worded on page 7 of the WFB FAQ linked here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MED...Warhammer_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf For warmachines, I'm not sure how it's worded, but whatever is in the book is fine with me. Perhaps the FAQ addresses this? For movement trays. The book clearly states that units must measure from the base of the model and not from the tray when determining distance, line-of-sight, etc. The problem this can cause is when the models in a tray meet in close combat, they are seperated by a small amount. I don't see this as a problem, the distance is so miniscule and to complain about this would seem overly picky to me. I have yet to see someone complain about it. Lets just go with what the book says. For assigning events, I think that any players not present are skipped (as we have done so far). Additionally, I don't think a player should be forced to pick an event if they don't want to (All or Nothing for example). -Peter |
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| Sand |
I'm not sure if someone should be skipped just because they can't make it to the meeting. Maybe someone could atleast try and call them and if that doesn't work then they're skipped. If someone is sick I would almost rather they didn't come to the meeting and we just called them with their choices.
Also I think that when it comes to events only the bottom eight players should get to choose. If someone is skipped I don't think that the person in third place should get an event. Instead all events that haven't been picked should be out for that round. I agree with Pete when it comes to clipping and movement trays. |
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| Groomie |
It seems completely inconsistent to use the model's base for one measurement and not for another. If a model's base is what is being measured, then movement trays would have to be made illegal for purposes of resolving charges and other movement issues where that may apply.
The FAQ for clipping is not an official rule. There is no official Errata for WFB, or for any GW game for that matter. The FAQ solution promotes unfair play through deliberate clipping. I have seen games played this season where units have gotten an extra 4" of movement out of playing like this. That is crap. I'd rather see a charge where less than half the front rank hits the target unit as a failed charge. That seems to be the best solution to me. As for Mighty Empires and Events, I think you should be able to decline any event. All the events have a benefit, some are just much better and safer than others. We certainly shouldn't require someone who is at the meeting to take one if we are not allowing those who don't make it to not take any. Another solution for this issue would be to assign all the events to the smallest 8 empires in ascending order. If you aren't there you are assigned one randomly after all present players in the bottom 8 have made their choices. |
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| Groomie |
The book says that bases must touch for close combat to occur. So, yeah, let's go by what the book says, Pete. Enjoy never fighting in close combat again. |
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| Pete |
Steve, the book also says that this is a game more about fun and sportsmanship than hard-line rules. I think that's pretty clear. There are examples all over the place of WFB games in White Dwarf and elsewhere showing models in trays in close combat. What is the big deal about the trays? I don't understand why this is an issue. So what if it isn't consistent. Hooray, I can get an extra 2 mm of movement on my overrun because of my tray! It doesn't make that much of a difference. The book is clear about the base being the important part of measuring, just measure from the base and if models are on trays and locked in close combat, who cares it's a few mm off? -Peter |
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| Pete |
Yes, you could get some extra movement out of this, but I think the FAQ makes it pretty clear why this is an important rule to "aspire to" as they put it. It makes the game more fun for everyone. Clipping sucks, pure and simple. The solution they have in the FAQ should truthfully be "official" but in the spirit of common "sportsmanship" they don't do that, they just expect players to "aspire" to it. I think that's actually kind of a refreshing approach to the game and I think it would do everyone involved a bit of good to adopt that concept of "casual" play. -Peter |
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| Groomie |
GW sent a game into print without this rule in place. I have already posited several viable and easily understood options. Giving models extra movement with this bullshit maximizing of facing is not in the "spirit of the game".
If you are so interested in the "spirit of the game", why aren't you interested in what other players have come up with to solve this issue? Maybe it's because I saw you get almost 4" of free movement when you played Jason? Maybe you like Maximizing Facing because you like taking advantage of it? This is clearly an issue that needs to be discussed, and I will NOT blindly accept an FAQ put out by a company that couldn't write an actual rule about this before sending their game to the printers. We can find a better, easier, and more fair solution than this. That is what house rules are. As to the issue of Movement Trays. Movement Trays are a convenience. They are not part of the game. They are not covered by the rules. Rules that we make concerning Movement Trays should be consistent. If they aren't, it will lead to more mistakes later on. And it makes a lot of difference, especially when you consider that there is no size restriction on a movement tray. I can make trays that project 10" or more out from where the actual base is, Pete. In fact, I could make a movement tray that is 4' x 8' for my 5 Dragon Princes if I wanted to. This is exactly what I was talking about. For the record here are my suggestions: Movement Trays. Consistent measurement, from the edge of the tray for shooting, moving, and resolution of close combat. Maximizing Facing. If, after completing a charge, less than half of your front rank is not in contact with the target of a charge, it is a failed charge. Move your unit backwards (in a straight line) until the unit has moved the correct distance for a failed charge. If half or more are in contact, then maximize facing. Simple solutions to issues that GW apparently couldn't handle. |
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| drop? |
all of these links are from the GW website.
Tile painting and modding link. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...goryId=cat190003&aId=11100049 Maps and Tile Gallery http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...dex=0&aId=1300017&start=1 Seasons http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...egoryId=cat190003&aId=1500003 4 Additional events http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...egoryId=cat190003&aId=1600002 Sea modding http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...egoryId=cat190003&aId=1600003 Sea Tile Rules http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...egoryId=cat190003&aId=1600008 Racial Rules http://www.games-workshop.com/gws...egoryId=cat190003&aId=1700005 i think the seasons and the racial rules are cool. the sea ones would be fun if someone wanted to make/paint up some sea tiles. well that's my 2 bits. |
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| Kaufmann |
this kind of post is not constructive, not liking a rule is no basis for accusing someone of abusing it to their advantage. making wild accusations will not bring people around to your way of thinking. the mighty empires league is supposed to be CASUAL. |
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| Groomie |
Sorry you feel that way, Chris.
There aren't any wild accusations, only completely reasonable questions. |
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| vegeta7913 |
What I can take from this thread is:
1) Groom is throwing away all movement trays and will not play against anyone who uses them; since, as a good rules lawyer, the models technically will not be in base to base and can never be in close combat. And Groom loves getting his sword wet. 2) Groom has never ever ever played and will never ever ever play with maximized facing since an official FAQ from Games Workshop hasn't found it's way into book form yet (even though that is the current standard for the league.) 3) Pete was spawned in a test tube from the DNA of Hitler and Satan for following an agreed upon house rule for the Mighty Empires Campaign. 4) Pete must listen to what every person has to say about any rule ever to come under debate before he is allowed to express an opinion. This rule is optional for everyone else. (I.e. a discussion of a possible Warhammer role-playing campaign set up to coincide with the mighty empires campaign. No one would just summarily dismiss that out of hand, say how stupid they thought it would be, would they, Groom?) 5) Games should not be played to have fun. Mutual respect for fellow gamers and (dare I say it) friends should be tossed to the wayside. The benefit of the doubt should never be given and a constant state of paranoia should be lived in, wondering when we will be cheated by our opponent. We must Min/Max to the extreme and we should shower our opponents, not with praise on a victory, but with barely veiled insults about their dress, playing ability, and lack of motor skills. 6) We should spend the entire game complaining bitterly about how much we hate it and that the makers of the game should be dipped in caramel and made to watch Jennifer Lopez movies til their eyes bleed and rectums shrivel. We should also freak out every time someone: makes a mistake, smiles, shows up, doesn't have all the models, aren't fully painted, was thirty minutes late, doesn't like coffee, likes coffee too much, likes coffee (but just as friends), would like to get to know coffee better but just got out of a long term relationship with tea and we should really take it slow, accidently takes back a charge, forgets the magic phase or doesn't know every little detail of the game. 7) Steve Drop actually did some good research with those links. I can't believe I just complimented Drop. |
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| Groomie |
What about people that don't like beards, who like beards, and who like beards (but only as friends)? | ||
| Groomie |
And everyone knows that Pete was created by fusing Buddha with Ghandi. | ||
| Blood Bowl Wizard |
Sorry that I've been absent from this thread.
I would like to say that we shouldn't start using any new house rules at mid-season. I've played in other leagues where the rules changed often, and sometimes during games, and the lack of consistancy ruined the league. On movement trays, all we need to do is agree at the start of each match how we will be measuring movement, and be consistant about it. Jason |
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| Vitamin T |
I know I'm not in mighty empires, but I have been in and run leagues and tournaments for other games and I have to completely agree. Changing rules midstream is almost always a really bad idea. TL |
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| Groomie |
I agree, changing rules in midstream is almost as bad an idea in a game as it is when going to the bathroom... | ||
| Groomie |
Forfeits
I have been thinking about this. The issue I have is when a person is challenged more than once. Normally they would average their scores. If they have a massacre and then a forfeit, they would lose two points. If they got massacred and then got a forfeit they would only gain 1 point. I think that the best solution where multiple challenges is concerned may be to either: award no points for the forfeited match or to adjust their score overall to a 3 regardless of their other games. |
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| Groomie |
Wait, you're not in Mighty Empires! Does that mean there will be trophy at the store that doesn't have your name on it a billion times? |
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| Groomie |
Pete and I were looking at the map after the pasting he gave me on thursday, and we were discussing the Mighty Empires rules for winning. What we found was that there are sudden death rules for winning by way of taking out an enemy's empire. He and I both feel this particular win condition is suspect at best and I thought I'd put up here a suggestion to remove it from future seasons (in keeping with not changing things now).
Another thing we were discussing was changing the number of tiles needed to win. The rulebook is set up for 6 players (8 tiles per player). The win condition is the player that builds to 10 tiles (including cities). That seems ok for 6 players, as ten tiles represents about 20% of the total tiles. Right now we have almost twice as many tiles. I propose that we look at increasing the winning number of tiles by one for every two players that we have beyond 6. For example, we have 11 players, and if we changed this rule the target number of tiles would be 12 tiles. The percentage of tiles isn't quite 20% (you'd have to take 18 1/2 tiles on our current map) but it is higher than what would be needed on a much smaller map. This might make the seasons longer, depending on the number of players, but it also means that everyone has a better chance of coming back from a few bad games. |
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| Pete |
I completely agree on both counts. Especially the second suggestion. |
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| Groomie |
Everyone should mark this date down on the calendar. Pete and I agree. It is a rare thing, so enjoy it while it lasts... | ||
| drop? |
i like steves suggestion since i does seem to be a bit more balanced. |